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	<title>Comments on: Why Rails Will Not Reign Supreme (and why you shouldn&#8217;t want it to)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/</link>
	<description>CitrusByte</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:22:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/#comment-66</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wordpress/?p=39#comment-66</guid>
		<description>Another aspect of this discussion is cost of entry for the enterprise project. Selection of the development platform has as much to do with Ruby adoption as the commodity aspects of hiring. When a manager sees the expense associated with standing up a Microsoft development team and looks over at Java and sees nothing more than hardware and people costs, the choice is simple. Nothing to do with Ruby but that is what happens.

The argument that Ruby/Rails has a similar entry cost is a close call but has some flaws. Currently, hiring a Senior Ruby developer would be a difficult proposition; the only one I know is starting his own company and is not interested in "taking a step back" by coming back to big enterprise. I imagine this mindset is not exclusive to him; read "Rock Star."

I would certainly entertain the idea of slipping RoR into the system I am responsible for if it fit the bill but I have to consider the management's perspective and limit us to the most cost effective and maintainable solution. In this time and place, that happens to be Java/J2EE.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another aspect of this discussion is cost of entry for the enterprise project. Selection of the development platform has as much to do with Ruby adoption as the commodity aspects of hiring. When a manager sees the expense associated with standing up a Microsoft development team and looks over at Java and sees nothing more than hardware and people costs, the choice is simple. Nothing to do with Ruby but that is what happens.</p>
<p>The argument that Ruby/Rails has a similar entry cost is a close call but has some flaws. Currently, hiring a Senior Ruby developer would be a difficult proposition; the only one I know is starting his own company and is not interested in &#8220;taking a step back&#8221; by coming back to big enterprise. I imagine this mindset is not exclusive to him; read &#8220;Rock Star.&#8221;</p>
<p>I would certainly entertain the idea of slipping RoR into the system I am responsible for if it fit the bill but I have to consider the management&#8217;s perspective and limit us to the most cost effective and maintainable solution. In this time and place, that happens to be Java/J2EE.</p>
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		<title>By: JAlexoid</title>
		<link>http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/#comment-63</link>
		<dc:creator>JAlexoid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wordpress/?p=39#comment-63</guid>
		<description>@Sam

    &lt;blockquote&gt;most are reporting much higher success rates than with Java&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Thing is that not only success rate is important. But maintainability, changes, support and talent pool are also very important. And BTW for a larger app I would not use Rails as both backend and frontend. The bigger the app, the harder to maintain it - for Ruby.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Sam</p>
<blockquote><p>most are reporting much higher success rates than with Java</p></blockquote>
<p>Thing is that not only success rate is important. But maintainability, changes, support and talent pool are also very important. And BTW for a larger app I would not use Rails as both backend and frontend. The bigger the app, the harder to maintain it - for Ruby.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Sepulveda</title>
		<link>http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Sepulveda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wordpress/?p=39#comment-64</guid>
		<description>I don't think Ruby and Rails are too powerful for enterprise. While you can do things that are "dangerous", it isn't as if hoards of naive developers are accidentally changing addition routines so 2+2=5.

For less experienced developers, Rails can seem like a godsend -- you can develop useful applications without having to build lots of infrastructure nor having to deal with concurrency, database connections, etc. (It's fair to note CakePHP and Django have similar benefits.)

But for experienced developers, or the noted Rock Star", Ruby allows for some very elegant solutions with very little code.

Ruby, by itself, would have been hard for enterprise (and other markets) to adopt. But Rails provides support for the learning and flexibility for the knowledgeable. As for the in-between, who but presume capabilities they don't have, well...you are going to run into problems in any language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Ruby and Rails are too powerful for enterprise. While you can do things that are &#8220;dangerous&#8221;, it isn&#8217;t as if hoards of naive developers are accidentally changing addition routines so 2+2=5.</p>
<p>For less experienced developers, Rails can seem like a godsend &#8212; you can develop useful applications without having to build lots of infrastructure nor having to deal with concurrency, database connections, etc. (It&#8217;s fair to note CakePHP and Django have similar benefits.)</p>
<p>But for experienced developers, or the noted Rock Star&#8221;, Ruby allows for some very elegant solutions with very little code.</p>
<p>Ruby, by itself, would have been hard for enterprise (and other markets) to adopt. But Rails provides support for the learning and flexibility for the knowledgeable. As for the in-between, who but presume capabilities they don&#8217;t have, well&#8230;you are going to run into problems in any language.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Sepulveda</title>
		<link>http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/#comment-65</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Sepulveda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Mar 2008 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wordpress/?p=39#comment-65</guid>
		<description>I think Python has been stigmatized in enterprise as a utility scripting language. Had Python originally entered enterprise as the Python/Django combination, it may have had more impact.

This stigma makes it hard for stakeholders to support developer pleas to use Python (and possibly Django) where they would use Java.

While Ruby has been around for years, it has been considered an esoteric language few knew of. But Rails is new and hot right now. And business stakeholders are hearing about its economic benefits of increased productivity and quicker time to market. In many cases, both developers and stakeholders are interested in Rails and this gives it a favorable position. (I think it is worth noting that a similar phenomenon occurred wit Java in many cases as it gained market share.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Python has been stigmatized in enterprise as a utility scripting language. Had Python originally entered enterprise as the Python/Django combination, it may have had more impact.</p>
<p>This stigma makes it hard for stakeholders to support developer pleas to use Python (and possibly Django) where they would use Java.</p>
<p>While Ruby has been around for years, it has been considered an esoteric language few knew of. But Rails is new and hot right now. And business stakeholders are hearing about its economic benefits of increased productivity and quicker time to market. In many cases, both developers and stakeholders are interested in Rails and this gives it a favorable position. (I think it is worth noting that a similar phenomenon occurred wit Java in many cases as it gained market share.)</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wordpress/?p=39#comment-49</guid>
		<description>I'm waiting for Io on Ions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m waiting for Io on Ions.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Cooper</title>
		<link>http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/#comment-50</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Cooper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wordpress/?p=39#comment-50</guid>
		<description>I haven't much to add at this point but.. I agree with you pretty much 100%.

"Super star" developers are like property snobs. Once enough "mainstream" programmers get on the Rails bandwagon (if this ever happens), those "super star" developers will engage in a developer variation of "white flight."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t much to add at this point but.. I agree with you pretty much 100%.</p>
<p>&#8220;Super star&#8221; developers are like property snobs. Once enough &#8220;mainstream&#8221; programmers get on the Rails bandwagon (if this ever happens), those &#8220;super star&#8221; developers will engage in a developer variation of &#8220;white flight.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Gordan Nott</title>
		<link>http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/#comment-51</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordan Nott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wordpress/?p=39#comment-51</guid>
		<description>JavaScript has already won the Language War. Every other lang is in some stage of decomposition. All we're waiting for is client- and server-side JS to blend elegantly, decent E4X support, and a clean way of abstracting away CSS in a similar fashion.

In ten years, we'll all be writing nothing but JavaScript. Though the nomenclature will probably change, and we'll just call it flat-out "script," because, well, all the other scripting languages will be rotting legacy software.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JavaScript has already won the Language War. Every other lang is in some stage of decomposition. All we&#8217;re waiting for is client- and server-side JS to blend elegantly, decent E4X support, and a clean way of abstracting away CSS in a similar fashion.</p>
<p>In ten years, we&#8217;ll all be writing nothing but JavaScript. Though the nomenclature will probably change, and we&#8217;ll just call it flat-out &#8220;script,&#8221; because, well, all the other scripting languages will be rotting legacy software.</p>
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		<title>By: tim</title>
		<link>http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wordpress/?p=39#comment-52</guid>
		<description>1.

      Zope failed for the same reason Netscape died: they took everything apart and stopped having forward-moving releases. There was Zope 3, and Zope 2, and then they tried to put some 3 features into 2 with Zope 5 ("2+3", ha) so people would think they were still alive. I was a Python programmer, and I tried to figure out how to write a Zope program, and I couldn't even figure out what Zope to use. The fact that it was Python was completely incidental to its suckage and demise.
   2.

      If companies like lower-level languages, why stop at Java? Why not write "enterprise" software in Pascal? If implementing everything by hand is better than abstractions in source code, we can go a lot lower!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.</p>
<p>      Zope failed for the same reason Netscape died: they took everything apart and stopped having forward-moving releases. There was Zope 3, and Zope 2, and then they tried to put some 3 features into 2 with Zope 5 (&#8221;2+3&#8243;, ha) so people would think they were still alive. I was a Python programmer, and I tried to figure out how to write a Zope program, and I couldn&#8217;t even figure out what Zope to use. The fact that it was Python was completely incidental to its suckage and demise.<br />
   2.</p>
<p>      If companies like lower-level languages, why stop at Java? Why not write &#8220;enterprise&#8221; software in Pascal? If implementing everything by hand is better than abstractions in source code, we can go a lot lower!</p>
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		<title>By: seog</title>
		<link>http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>seog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wordpress/?p=39#comment-53</guid>
		<description>Interesting read. In general there is a truth you exposed -- paying more for higher quality people produces far more output then hiring a bunch of people at a lower rate. I think this is true in most businesses where the creative capital and thinking ability is the prime determination of the success of your product.

People who are just "ok" are likely to make just "ok" and average products, and who wants to buy that? See Seth Godin on this point, he has a lot of excellent things to say about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting read. In general there is a truth you exposed &#8212; paying more for higher quality people produces far more output then hiring a bunch of people at a lower rate. I think this is true in most businesses where the creative capital and thinking ability is the prime determination of the success of your product.</p>
<p>People who are just &#8220;ok&#8221; are likely to make just &#8220;ok&#8221; and average products, and who wants to buy that? See Seth Godin on this point, he has a lot of excellent things to say about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Donny</title>
		<link>http://blog.citrusbyte.com/2008/03/22/why-rails-will-not-reign-supreme-and-why-you-shouldnt-want-it-to/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>Donny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wordpress/?p=39#comment-54</guid>
		<description>See, here's the problem:

1) You have a very powerful tools: Ruby + rails

2) You have an unknown developer

3) He starts coding in anger (pushing Ruby and Rails to the limit)

4) Nobody understand his code (cause there are no comments)

While in Java, albeit it might take a while, I would argue that you will understand his code one way or another.

What makes you think that Rock-Star developer will write comment? Geeks are known for their code-poetry (or coding as his/her porn). Geeks don't think documentation is cool.

Besides, Rock-Star developer is the type of person that gets bored easily. There's a reason why he jumped to different languages quite often. The same attitude will show up in the job. So one day, Rock-Star developer argued that "Hi CIO, Ruby is no longer good enough for our project, let's switch to LISP today". Then what happened if he got rejected? He left the company for a better opportunity. He's a Rock-Star developer right?

Most CIO and managers aren't that stupid. Most Rock-Star developers aren't that smart either. They may be super good in coding, and not in everything else.

Most Rails programmers are PHP convert by the way. Most Rails programmers are also Java convert by the way. None of them are LISP convert. So that makes Rails the average PHP and Java community.

So if Rails programmers are in "scarcity", I'd say, let them be. It's much better without these mix crowds.

I always wonder why (the average) Ruby and Rails people think that they're better than Java developer (speaking in terms of average). Most Rails developers can't push Ruby to its boundary. Most Rails developers can only code as good as their Java/PHP code.

So where we are right now?

    *

      A small pool of Ruby on Rails developers
    *

      Only top 10% can code Ruby correctly without shooting someone else's foot
    *

      So probably only a tiny useful developers

If I'm a CIO, why would I decided to use Ruby on Rails if most of them aren't as good as advertised?

I'm not surprised one bit when I found and used broken Rails plugins with no documentation when I was using Rails.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, here&#8217;s the problem:</p>
<p>1) You have a very powerful tools: Ruby + rails</p>
<p>2) You have an unknown developer</p>
<p>3) He starts coding in anger (pushing Ruby and Rails to the limit)</p>
<p>4) Nobody understand his code (cause there are no comments)</p>
<p>While in Java, albeit it might take a while, I would argue that you will understand his code one way or another.</p>
<p>What makes you think that Rock-Star developer will write comment? Geeks are known for their code-poetry (or coding as his/her porn). Geeks don&#8217;t think documentation is cool.</p>
<p>Besides, Rock-Star developer is the type of person that gets bored easily. There&#8217;s a reason why he jumped to different languages quite often. The same attitude will show up in the job. So one day, Rock-Star developer argued that &#8220;Hi CIO, Ruby is no longer good enough for our project, let&#8217;s switch to LISP today&#8221;. Then what happened if he got rejected? He left the company for a better opportunity. He&#8217;s a Rock-Star developer right?</p>
<p>Most CIO and managers aren&#8217;t that stupid. Most Rock-Star developers aren&#8217;t that smart either. They may be super good in coding, and not in everything else.</p>
<p>Most Rails programmers are PHP convert by the way. Most Rails programmers are also Java convert by the way. None of them are LISP convert. So that makes Rails the average PHP and Java community.</p>
<p>So if Rails programmers are in &#8220;scarcity&#8221;, I&#8217;d say, let them be. It&#8217;s much better without these mix crowds.</p>
<p>I always wonder why (the average) Ruby and Rails people think that they&#8217;re better than Java developer (speaking in terms of average). Most Rails developers can&#8217;t push Ruby to its boundary. Most Rails developers can only code as good as their Java/PHP code.</p>
<p>So where we are right now?</p>
<p>    *</p>
<p>      A small pool of Ruby on Rails developers<br />
    *</p>
<p>      Only top 10% can code Ruby correctly without shooting someone else&#8217;s foot<br />
    *</p>
<p>      So probably only a tiny useful developers</p>
<p>If I&#8217;m a CIO, why would I decided to use Ruby on Rails if most of them aren&#8217;t as good as advertised?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not surprised one bit when I found and used broken Rails plugins with no documentation when I was using Rails.</p>
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